A great big Texas thank you to Lelia Lawler for spending some time with me on the show.
Leila and I cover a lot of ground in this conversation: from her conversion to Christianity in her teens, entering the Catholic Church as a young adult, her marriage and family life, her books, and of course her love for C.S. Lewis. We had a great discussion on order and wonder, beauty, modernism, and Lewis’ warnings in The Abolition of Man and That Hideous Strength. Drawing upon first principles, philosophy, and C.S. Lewis, Leila very deftly eviscerates modernism in this episode.
Leila emphasizes the importance of “the givens” or first principles and how we will destroy ourselves (as Lewis says in The Abolition of Man) if we attempt to destroy or alter these givens. I hope you enjoy our conversation and look forward to your comments. Be sure to check out Leila’s writing and follow her on substack (all links below).
Conversation Road Map
Opening quote, Leila intro, and welcome 00:00 – 2:00
Opening chit chat 2:00
Leila’s trip to Colorado and welcoming her newest grandchild!
Leila’s background and writing career 3:18
Conversion to Christianity, marriage to Phil, and entering the Catholic Church
Influence of C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity on her conversion to Christianity
Leila’s books: The Summa Domestica 9:52
Order and wonder
Leila and Phil’s Podcast: The Homefront and Substack 22:03
The Abolition of Man 27:11
Opening quote discussion
The Abolition of Man and That Hideous Strength as “twins”
Lewis’ literary influences
AoM as refutation of the moderns
The Poison of Subjectivism (essay in which Jack presents some of the ideas from AoM)
On needing to accept “the givens”
Closing quote on “seeing through everything” from AoM
Modernist belief that we made ourselves therefore we can manipulate ourselves as we see fit (Leila is having absolutely none of that!)
Confronting Modernism and Discussion of That Hideous Strength 48:20
Preface overview - this is a tall tale about devilry, connection of THS and AoM
Brian lost a bet by mentioning The Great Divorce in this episode
The un-dragoning of Eustace (Voyage of the Dawn Treader)
Planet Narnia (Michael Ward) and Fr. Brian McGreevy choosing “Jupiter” by Gustav Holst
THS theme discussion: obscuring order, balance, and objectivity in favor of subjectivism and ambiguity using the “objective room” scene from THS
One of the N.I.C.E leaders, Frost, asks Mark to spend some time in a special room
Windowless, only artificial light giving “illusion” of daylight; no fireplace which made it seem chilly but temperature was not cold at all
Dimensions of the room are slightly disproportioned but not obviously so
The arch above the doorway was lopsided – but not immediately apparent but it becomes an obsession
Spots on ceiling painted at irregular intervals – at once wanting to be counted but counting was hard because of the odd spacing…or were they oddly spaced?
“The thing was near enough to the true to deceive you for a moment and to go on teasing the mind even after the deception had been unmasked.”
“They suggested some kind of pattern. Their peculiar ugliness consisted in the very fact that they kept on suggesting it and then frustrating the expectation thus aroused.”
Closing & thank you 1:14:33
Leila’s thoughts on Hildegard Von Bingen
Plotting for a podcast collaboration for That Hideous Strength
Here are some ways you can connect with Leila and her writing:
Like Mother, Like Daughter: https://likemotherlikedaughter.org/
Happy Despite Them Substack: https://leilamarielawler.substack.com
The Home Front Podcast: https://leilamarielawler.substack.com/s/the-home-front
Leila’s Books:
The Summa Domestica 3-Volume Hardcover Set: https://sophiainstitute.com/product/summa-domestica-3-volume-set/
The Little Oratory: The Little Oratory on Amazon
Episode Music: O magne Pater (Antiphon, Dendermonde Manuscript) by Hildegard Von Bingen
A Conversation About Order & Wonder, Modernism, and C.S. Lewis with Leila Lawler