I had the opportunity to spend some time with Joseph Weigel from the Men with Chests podcast on THCSL. We had a fun discussion about his podcast, how to avoid drinking the poison of subjectivism, and how Mark gets a chest in That Hideous Strength. Joseph explains the flaws of materialism & subjectivism and how Lewis masterfully eviscerates these false & dangerous philosophies in That Hideous Strength. You do not want to miss this episode!
Joseph is a very gifted speaker and writer so I encourage you to check out his podcast and be on the lookout for his upcoming book Planet Thulcandra (collaboration with Sorina Higgins).
Conversation Road Map
Opening quote, Joseph overview, intro, and welcome 00:00 – 1:31
Men with Chests podcast and Joseph’s C.S. Lewis Background 1:32 - 7:14
Podcast name is a play on chapter 1 from Lewis’ The Abolition of Man (Men without Chests)
Focus on providing deep dives of The Abolition of Man and That Hideous Strength
Read some Narnia as a kid; Mere Christianity as a young adult as he was looking for “answers to big questions”; interest in philosophy led him to The Abolition of Man
Discussion of Opening Quote 7:15 - 10:12
From That Hideous Strength (chapter 10, The Conquered City)
Joseph reminds us some of the short-comings of materialism - “Materialism does not protect you from ghosts if ghosts in fact exist.”
Welcome to the C.S. Lewis Seroni Club 10:13 - 11:31
Overview of the Ransom Trilogy and Setting the Table 11:32 - 17:42
Out of the Silent Planet: Lewis is critiquing scientism as means to preserve humanity; colonialism
Perelandra: Lewis is critiquing emergent evolutionism and “spirituality” and even some pantheism (Henri Bergson)
That Hideous Strength: Lewis is critiquing those who try to live outside of the Tao (Natural Law) and usurp God; the conditioners are the ones who determine right and wrong; in short he is critiquing Progress and the Myth of Progress
That Hideous Strength Topic #1: The Goals and Methods of the N.I.C.E 17:43 - 28:50
From conversation between Mark and Lord Feverstone in chapter 2
N.I.C.E. = National Institute of Coordinated Experiments
Latin root for “nice” means ignorant (was this Tolkien’s idea?)
Group of “experts” who think they have all the answers
Goal is for man (but not all men) to become immortal and to replace God; okay with eliminating those who get in the way or who are not fit; the means justify the ends
“First fruits of the new man” (literally, The Head of Alcasan)
Lord Feverstone as an opportunist, lukewarm, playing both sides, not loyal to anything but his own ends
Brian referenced The Hunt for Red October (that’s twice so far since launching the THCSL podcast!)
That Hideous Strength Topic #2: Alcasan’s Head, Alchemy, and Poison 28:51 - 39:23
Arabian radiologist, Alcasan, is executed by beheading and the N.I.C.E. acquires his head and keeps it “alive” artificially to communicate with the Macrobes (Dark Eldila, devils)
Radiology associated with occult society and alchemy; alchemical goal to achieve immortality
Poison is a typical outcome of alchemy (Alcasan was executed for poisoning his wife)
N.I.C.E is occult society hell-bent on immortality
By keeping the Head alive, the N.I.C.E. is removing any ethical considerations so they can justify use of technology for keeping the Head alive
Joseph’s Sensucht article “Gobbling Poison” (he is referring to the poison of subjectivism); the N.I.C.E. has willingly gobbled this poison
Connection to Experiment House and The Head in The Silver Chair?
John Donne’s poem Love’s Alchymie from chapter 1 of That Hideous Strength - first clue about alchemy + theme of marriage and gender (Mark and Jane)
Alcasan sounds like alchemy
That Hideous Strength Topic #3: Mark and The Objective Room 39:24 - 1:14:25
Brian reads the section describing The Objective Room from chapter 14 Real Life is Meeting (~4 min read)
Frost, a committed materialist, is trying to re-orient Mark to “objectivity”
Lewis is pointing out the non-sensical view of subjectivism; it is self-defeating
“Everything is subjective!” But is that statement also subjective?
Frost looking for objectivity through the Macrobes; the room is meant to re-orient human senses (made in God’s image) to the warped & twisted view of the Macrobes
Is Frost inconsistent in his commitment to materialism in trying to put Mark through this exercise? Does he realize he is somewhat contradicting his materialist views? Frost seeks some level of the spiritual outside of materialism because deep down he knows materialism and subjectivism are inconsistent.
Frost is “open” to spirituality (but evil spirituality) because he understands materialism and subjectivism cannot work
Art in the objective room - bad art or meant to confuse? Makes Mark question what he thinks is straight and normal
The art in the room mocks scriptural themes and events (e.g. Last Supper)
Overt vs subtle (product of the inverted imagination from Chesterton)
Inverting the beautiful into something grotesque but not obviously so; Lewis is saying this is more dangerous than overt mockery and rejection of morality
Lewis’ visit to W.B. Yeats’ home in Ireland (Yeats was involved in occult societies)
From Lewis’ diary All My Road Before Me - walks stairway showcasing evil painting by William Blake (devils and monsters)
Visits a chamber in Yeats’ house with candles and strange things he cannot describe; hard to identify even though they may “seem innocent to the innocent”
Blake’s paintings influenced Thomas Harris’ Red Dragon (prequel to Silence of the Lambs)
Purposes of art: beauty (delight), instruct (move moral imagination in right direction)
The Objective Room is the antithesis of the true, the good, and the beautiful
Mark’s response to The Objective Room; Mark chooses the normal and the straight; Frost’s plan completely backfires!
Mark is experiencing morality; having a deeply moral experience (looking at vs looking along)
Mark is taking a step towards objectivity and the Tao and Natural Law (not quite Christianity yet)
Mark gets a chest; he commits to Natural Law
Natural Law is true for all humans (not just Christians); example of McPhee (materialist skeptic on the side of Ransom and the good guys)
Wrap Up and Close 1:14:26 - 1:18:30 end
CS Lewis Reading Day
Perelandra with Chris Pipkin; planning Out of the Silent Planet podcast series
Aristotle’s Ethics
Joseph’s upcoming book Planet Thulcandra with Sorena Higgins
Episode Music: “Smoke a Little Smoke” by Eric Church
A Conversation About Alchemy, Gobbling Poison, and Getting a Chest with Joseph Weigel